Now let me hand over. to Danae to kick it off. Danae.
[Yanis] Erik is not on holiday.
Yeah. We are live.
[Mehran] Hello.... I think we are live now.
Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to. another coordinating meeting
of DiEM25, The Movement for Europe. featuring progressive ideas
you won't hear anywhere else. and today we're talking about art.
How can art help us to. achieve our political goals?
How can it bring about the change that. the world so desperately needs?
DiEM25 is a movement that, since. it's inception, has always taken art
and artists very seriously, from working. closely with artists
for creative campaigns to developing. cultural policy for Europe
to maintaining long-standing connections. with some of the leading artists
around the globe which some of you guys,. who have been following our
YouTube channel, will be familiar with,. and it does all of this through
our arts and culture platform,. which is called DiEM Voice,
and I'm delighted that in today's call. we've got the three people
that run DiEM Voice,. Danae, Nadia and Kit.
So first they're going to be speaking. about DiEM Voice, what it is
and where it's going and how you guys. can get involved and then afterwards
we'll open up the call to the wider. coordinating collective on the call
to have a discussion about. art and politics.
You out there, if you've got any. comments, anything you want to
throw at us, any ideas on these topics,. please put them in the YouTube chat
and we might be reading them out. in between the interventions.
[Danae] Hello, thank you Mehran. and hello, everyone.
So I was the initiator of DiEM Voice,. of the art platform of DiEM
since the beginning with Yanis.
This is a dialogue which has been an. ongoing dialogue, how art and politics
can inform each other since we first met,. which is 15 years ago.
From from this perspective,. from the very beginning of DiEM,
we founded the platform, DiEM Voice. which aimed at the experiment of
seeing how can art be informed. by the politics, and the politics also
be shaped by the art.
So this was an experience.
This is how DiEM Voice started:. in a way more, by asking questions
and being present at the political. meetings of DiEM throughout Europe
for the first two years and giving. the opportunity to the people who
were following these events,. our members and more
to express themselves, ask questions,. and then these thoughts
from our audience and our members. would be brought back to
the people making the politics,. taking the decisions,
but also to artists in order to create. artworks and for the political team
let's say of DiEM to be informed. of what people thought
and include this in their priorities,. let's say or in the shaping of the ideas
that would make DiEM go forward.
So this is how we started off. and at some point because always
an initiative that is volunteer as we. have seen in many sections of DiEM
at some point, may sort of die out.
So here I wanted to say, I'm not. actually running DiEM Voice,
but I was one of the initiators,. but many people helped
the first phase of it to run.
Kit was one of them, of those people. and she stuck with it for all this time.
So here she is running it now,. together with Nadia,
just to make this the link of how. we got there at some point,
with the Covid and the. pandemic and all that it brought
to the art world, we thought and. discussing this with Srećko
and Ivana and Yanis, of course,. and everyone and Erik
and other people. within the movement.
We we thought that this was a. good moment to reset,
let's say DiEM Voice to see how. it could function from the grassroots
and become more integrated. with the movement's goals
in order to be able to reach to. a wider audience of people
who may not be so comfortable. coming to a political movement,
but they may be more open. to the art part of it.
So let me quickly just wrap it up here. and we'll be back and to introduce
Kit Hill and Nadia Sales Grade
- I don't know if I'm. pronouncing this well -
who were the two people,. after many interviews and opening up
a call and having amazing people. who wanted to help with this effort,
we thought that these two people. were the ones, the best people
to start this effort in order to integrate. DiEM Voice within the goals of DiEM25.
So I give the floor to Nadia first,. I believe
to inform us of what we have achieved
in the last year since we started,. we rebooted and then Kit will talk
about the future plans.
[Nadia] Hello, everyone.
So I'm just going to quickly. summarize what we have been
doing in these last months.
So the first big task we had was. to build up our website,
where you can learn about DiEM Voice. current activities, but also get in touch
and know how to get involved. as an artist or as any other,
because we think about the artists. and culture in a very broad sense.
So if you are a creative in some kind. of way, you're always welcome to
come to us and try to get involved. somehow in all our activities.
So that was our big, big task for our. first task and we launched the website
in April and with the website,. we launched the first online exhibition
in our gallery, on the gallery of. our website called
'Raise Your Voice for Assange',. and that was basically our first
artistic campaign in line with DiEM25. principles and also in defense
of a member of the advisory panel. of DiEM25, Julian Assange.
So we have 80 artworks on our gallery. that you can look at.
After that, we kept on doing this campaign. for Julian Assange's birthday
around the third of July, when. Julian Assange celebrated his
50th birthday with a new campaign called:. 'Why Are You So Afraid of Assange?'
that had two aspects.
One protest action on the main,. on the day of his birthday,
where DiEM25 members went out. on the streets with masks or with
the artworks from our gallery. or even with chairs,
to replicate Davide Dormino's sculpture. with the chairs and with
the whistleblowers and the journalist,. Julian Assange,
and also we organized a DiEM TV. special episode with Davide Dormino
and Angela Richter, two artists that. have been doing exactly what we want
to do more and more with DiEM Voice,. which is bring
artists together with politics.
Make this perfect mix between both. and be able to get to a broader audience
and what else?
We have been involved with many. different DiEM25 projects,
such as People's Gatherings. such as Green New Deal for Europe
and we also organized.... we have already like a team of work
in design organized that you can join. to help us with design, with video,
with photography whatever your. skills are in terms of visual identity.
You can also get involved. with DiEM25 and help us
make our overall visual identity. look more creative basically.
So now I'll give Kit the chance to talk. about the future plans of DiEM Voice.
[Kit] Hi. Thank you, Nadia.
Yeah! So now we've reignited and. sort of done all these initial projects.
Come autumn, we're really looking. towards starting to develop
and create a cultural policy.
I think, especially the pandemic has. shown a clear light that...
shown a light onto why we need to. really focus on this now.
It's so crucial.
There's lots of...
[Mehran] Oh, did we lose you Kit?
Yes, it looks like we did.
So Kit will be back later when she. sorts out her internet problem.
It's live, that's what happens.
Patrizia, you had raised your hand. and then we'll bring Kit back in
if she reconnects.
[Patrizia] Okay. Thank you.
Very briefly, just a quick reflection. on how art should work a key role
more and more in politics. and in our cultural revolution.
We should do, we we should need.
First of all, I think we also should. think a little bit about
a definition of art because,. in my opinion, art embraces
literature, writing,. art paintings, sculpture.
I mean many different topics. and tools and we need all of them
in this cultural revolution. at all levels.
If I think in my country, one of the. most important dangers we have
is due to the last 20, 30 years,. due to our Berlusconi cultural
let's say, way of thinking.
It is completely wrong, so the only way. we have to try to change completely,
this kind of thinking, is through art. and art in a way, should be the way
to train curious. and life's angry thinkers.
That's I think it's a good point to. think about. Thank you.
[Mehran] Thank you. Patrizia.. Claudia.
[Claudia] Yeah, thank you Patrizia.
I underline everything you said but,. one thing you missed in arts, it's music
[Patrizia] Yeah!
[Claudia] As you may know, that. I was working in the music industry
[Patrizia] Sorry! sorry.
[Claudia] I am still working with . musicians and artists doing music.
I still think this is a very important. tool and as we can see in Germany,
for example, the bad thing is,. for example, there are many
right-wing bands here.
They are writing really bad texts. and they are really huge
and they have a big, big audience.
They are doing concerts. with thousands of people.
It's called 'rechts rock', means. right rock, and this is really huge
and I think we shouldn't give them. the floor to do this.
There are also left music bands. and so on, and perhaps sometimes
we should try to cooperate also with. those kind of musicians who
are interested in those topics.
For example, I was working with. a musician which is very deep into
the topic of climate crisis,. and he has many songs about that,
really cool and it's a kind of rap hip-hop. and doing in French,
in English and in German,. so it's multicultural.
It's left-wing, it's anti-fascism and. those kinds of musicians we also need.
They need to come to our movement.
I think we have to work on this as well.
Just my two cents.
[Mehran] Thanks Claudia,. and we're already getting calls
in the chat for people asking for. the DiEM Voice website.
We will put it in the chat.
We're just resolving some technical. issues, but for now,
the website can be found at. Voice.DiEM25.org.
Danae, you're muted, Danae sorry
[Danae] Okay, sorry about that.
Just to take it from Patrizia and Claudia.
I just wanted to say that we have started. already in MeRA, which is in
the Greek parliament, has a small.... part of the money that we take from
the Greek state has to go to cultural. and research projects,
and it can only be given to that.
So we have created an institute called. 'Center for Post-capitalist Civilization'
which has been running. for a few months now.
We launched it in May and we had. the chance through that,
exactly to experiment live and to see. what can really the impact be,
and does it actually draw more people in. if you speak through the artistic language
and through the artistic perspective,. and what we have done is exactly
mixing different forms of art,. including music, of course,
but also, not just the high sort of arts,. but also more popular kind of arts.
So recently we have done an on tour,. a small, with performance with three
different groups of artists.
So it's a shadow theater. which is a very old traditional,
Greek and Turkish practice. but of course bringing it to today
and making political comments. because we had this in order to
look at the future.
We had two stand-up comedians,. two young women, amazing,
which is a very different,. much more Western kind of form,
and then we had an. amazing musician.
A young person with a huge following.
Today is the last day actually. of our event.
He's going on tour in the States.
It was a group of musicians from. northern Greece playing
traditional Greek music,. but they have reinvented it
and he has done an amazing. new way of his own in order to be
a one man show but, so he plays his. musical instruments, six or seven
different ones of them,. and then he sort of records himself
and creates these loops, and it's amazing.
So we had more than a thousand people. coming to each of our events,
and this is really, it does work.
This was the proof that we had an. audience that would never come to
any political sort of...
I mean we struggle to have people. come to the political events sometimes.
Unless, of course, there is an election. or such things, but it actually worked
and mixing these art forms, I think,. is a the way is the way to go
and looking to the future.
[Mehran] Thank you Danae.
Anyone else like to comment?
Had your two cents?
[Patrizia] Well, if I can add something. after Danae in the meantime, can I?
[Mehran] Go on, please, yeah.
[Patrizia] Thank you,. exactly Danae.
Thanks for telling us that, because that's. exactly what I'm trying to say,
I mean the only way we have to. invert the paradigma
the today paradigma that today,. the all important thing
is to appear in social media.
Even if you don't do anything,. you are not able to do anything,
but just an appearance, to create it,. to encourage curious people
and again absolutely in all senses,. it's the only...
Well, one of the most potential arms. we have, and I'm proud to be
part of DiEM and DiEM Voice,. because, yes, we are the only
movement in Europe working. in this direction at the same time,
in a network and connecting. exactly all all these tools.
That's important, basically.
[Mehran] Thank you Patrizia.. Simona ...
Simona?
There you are.. Unmuted,
[Simona] I seriously managed. to unmute myself.
Hi everyone. I thought a lot. about the question of our meeting tonight
and fundamentally, I think that art is. a revolution in itself.
It's revolutionary in the very idea. of putting all of one's energies
and passion and time in doing something. just for the sake of creation
just for free
and this idea of freedom and creation
is revolutionary in. in as much as it entails
consequences concerning power,. the power of creation
and the alienation of this power.
Concerning freedom,
the freedom not to sell one's time
and to be free to use it. for creation, for art.
It entails a series. of revolutionary meanings
and consequences
that are just framed. into a capitalistic frame
when we think on how to use art.
We live in a capitalistic frame,. so we can't help but to play this game
and to use art and creation. for the spectacle
and for getting more audience. for our message
and so on and so forth.
But let's not forget that. by using art this way
we are playing into the...
we are playing the game. of the spectacle,
the game of capitalism
and when playing this game, we confirm it.
It's like, you remember Banksy?
He produced tons of fake banknotes
just for fun and for ridiculizing money.
And these banknotes now. have a huge value in real money.
This is a...... the capitalism and the spectacle frame
absorbing his gesture.
So, let's not forget. that the real revolutionary
contribution of art
is in pointing out. the possibilities of men
and the creation and the freedom
that are inside these possibilities.
[Mehran] Thank you, Simona. Beral.
[Beral] Okay, thank you, Mehran.
I think it would be helpful. to consult three people in this regard
Rancière, Badiou. and Nicholas Bourriaud.
because they have already proven
the intensity of the relationship. between art and politics.
Since many years. they are really reaching large publics
with their writings and ideas.
For example, in the. 'Politics of Aesthetics',
which is the most important book. on this subject,
he concludes himself
that he considers his own work. to be a poetic endeavor,
and he also shows us. that there is a critical dilemma.
There is an antique idea
that defines artwork. as. a common craft labor
This definition
has also infiltrated. into modernism.
And through modernism,. into the cultural policies
of conservatives. or rightist parties.
I think we still have this problem
in our party policies,. political party policies
and in Rancière's . 'Aesthetic Regime of Art'
he mentions it in that way,
breaks down the hierarchies of the regimes
which are infiltrating into the art
and says that new kinds of artwork. create new communities
and ways for people. to relate to one another.
And this gives the artists. a possible relation to politics.
We all know today that art. contributes to politics
such as critical thinking,. gaining aesthetic perspective,
guiding communities. and maintaining peace and wisdom.
However, it was also generally determined
that artists should be influential. in politics,
but under the so-called. traditional conservative conditions,
artists, upon entering politics
cannot always sustain. their position in politics as artists.
So there is a kind of restriction
to their position. in the political influence.
We know that the populist. political party policies,
Patrizia just mentioned. the situation in Italy.
These party policies argue. that artists should remain
detached from the society
by staying isolated. and in their eclectic positions,
and otherwise they would jeopardise,
both art itself. and target the audience behind them.
So I think opposing views
depend on that artists. should set light to the society
without being isolated from the rest
or restricting their art. to a certain political view
and they should hold art. and universality of art
one step ahead,
so that they can speak. to every individual in the society.
As Danae just mentioned,. that art should reach
to the different profiles of the society.
So if an artist is working. on refugee crisis
on migration, on borders,. what is his position?
It's political, extremely political!
And since 40 years,. I'm making political exhibitions.
So art is already. a political issue in this world.
Thank you.
[Mehran] Thank you . very much for that Beral.
Julijana.
[Julijana] Yes, I couldn't . agree more.
I think that if you're living. in the world
and you're expressing yourself. through art,
you will express what you experience
and if you experience. a certain kind of society
you will see that in your art,. as well or in someone's art.
What I wanted to add. is that I think
that art also has a very. educational component to itself
because I remember when I was younger,
you know I would go to a concert
you know and listen to bands. who are political
and they would bring a topic to me
like I would... you consume art. as a young person,
and maybe you don't even realize. in that moment
what you're consuming. but it prepares you
for what you will learn ahead in your life
and then you come back. and you're like:
ah, now I understand what this artist. was talking about back then,
and I think that this is a very,. very key component
to bring young people together,
especially young people.
Through art, through different forms. of cultural events,
because it's also easy for them
to go into a topic. through this playful setting
because art is a very playful setting. and if I go to exhibition as a person
who's - maybe I'm not . so political in their life.
I get to talk about politics without. being an expert on it,
without being too involved.
It opens the door. for people to express themselves,
even if they are not so highly educated. on certain matters
and so I'm really happy. that we have this platform in DIEM
I think it's something . that is exceptional,
that many other parties or . organizations lack this perspective
of including artists in their work
and accelerating the art in that way
and I'm looking forward . to see how it develops.
I'm really happy that we are. rebooting DiEM Voice
and we have rebooted DIEM Voice
[Mehran] Thank you for that Julijana.. Yanis.
[Yanis] Hi, everyone.
We of the left have a long tradition. of interaction with art,
which is very fruitful. and very problematic at the same time.
It's very fruitful. because the artistic perspective
has always been part. of our understanding of society.
Marx said, and I'll put it in the chat. when I find it,
If I remember correctly, something like:
that art is a secret confession. of humanity,
about its inner conflicts . and at the same time,
something like: it captures. the mortal movement of times.
So it's an existential thing.
It captures truth
in a way that science,. whether it's you know, political science
or natural science, cannot capture.
So, we've always. had this appreciation,
but at the same time, we have. the problematic relationship with that
which stems from socialist realism:
the attempt to instrumentalize art
and to make it something. like a propaganda weapon.
And that was always catastrophic,
because the moment. you instrumentalize art, you deface it
and that's something that DiEM Voice. from its very outset
set out not to do.
To respect art as a bellwether. of the society we live in
as a means by which to. summon knowledge
about the world,
finding ways of expressing,. of creating links
with other movements . with other people,
even with the enemy,
even with the bastards of the world,
because we do not want to assume. that anybody has been born a bastard,
even a fascist.
We're not surrendering . any human being to fascism,
to the establishment.
That's what it means to be humanist. and art is very useful at connecting,
even with the fascist.
You can connect with the fascists. through a song
that you know, it's impossible. to connect with them at a human level,
through discussion, right?
And so the DIEM Voice for DIEM. has always been an essential part.
You see, most other movements,. including educational systems,
especially in the west,
treat art and culture. as something nice to have
on top of everything else.
It's a bit like you know:
good manners in the military academy,
so officers being trained. in the military academy
are taught good manners. because they may have to be
in the presidential palace. or in you know,
with the king and the queen,. and they may have to be nice
and they have to use . the right fork and knife, right?
but it's not essential in what they do. at the battlefield.
At a big battlefield they have . to butcher people.
So it's additional.
That's how culture is being treated. by governments
by parliaments,. by the establishment we live in.
We don't do that.
For us it's you know,. doing art is doing politics
doing humanism,
understanding the world,. acting upon the world.
And let me finish off by saying that,. especially today,
when capitalism is transforming. to something worse than itself,
that's my view at least.
In a way...Yeah back on you again. say something.
[Mehran] No sorry, I thought. you could go for it again.
[Yanis] My final sentence,. my punchline,
which is that art is . the opposite of Facebook,
because when it comes to you know,. Ford Motor Company or Volkswagen,
you have the manufacturing of an object
on behalf of a subject.
The subject is the driver, the consumer
and you have Volkswagen, Ford, . producing an object for the subject.
What is common between . art and Facebook
is that both in Facebook . and in art...
Okay, not only are you producing an object. for the subject,
but you're also producing a subject. for the object.
Okay, so when you're creating art
immediately, you create. an audience for the art,
even though even if one. didn't exist before.
Similarly, when you. create Facebook,
you are creating not just. a service for people,
but people for the service,
because people become instruments. for Facebook to work.
So, in a sense,
the worst in today's techno feudalism,. which is Facebook for me
and the best which is art,
have something very, very much in common.
Remember the 1920s.
The greatest problem with fascism
is that it had a lot of common things. with socialism.
So a critique of the banking system,. a critique of capitalism,
a critique of finance,
a critique of too much inequality
and that's what Mussolini was saying
and he meant it, right?
So similarly,
Facebook and art share this capacity
to produce the subjects for the object. and the objects for the subject,
but in the same way
that socialism was. the greatest enemy of fascism
and in the end we lost.
Art is the greatest enemy of Facebook.
We must not lose this one.
[Mehran] Thanks Yanis,
and someone on the chat. is giving us some quotes,
which might be quite interesting. to add to this conversation.
The first is:
'art should comfort the disturbed. and disturb the comfortable'
And another which I quite like,
'Speak softly,. but carry a big can of paint'
Claudia.
[Claudia] Yeah. I want to add . something on Yanis' sentence about
what artists are also all about
and why we have seen in the past,. in the last one and a half years
where the Covid pandemic rose up,
we have seen how less people care. about art and artists itself.
Cinemas were closed.
Concert didn't take place.
Galleries were closed.
Everything was closed down
and the governments didn't care at all.
You know, it was like. we helped Lufthansa in Germany,
we have the big companies. with big subventions
and the artists couldn't work,
and this is also what artists. need to have:
something to eat, right?
So it's not just that we want,. - as I understand it, right -
as we as DiEM and not just. the organization or party
who are talking through the arts,
but also talking for arts and artists
and all the industry,
which is not big at. solo-self-employed people
like me, for example,
PR people, people on catering services. and all that stuff.
There are many, many people. who are suffering about this pandemic
because no one took care of them,
and I think we can do also good things. for those people
to give them more,. a better place in the society as well.
That's what I think we should do as well,. as DiEM25,
[Mehran] Thanks Claudia.. Rosemary
[Rosemary] Yes, I was. terribly interested in Yanis
saying how close aspects of fascism
were to aspects of socialism in the 30's,
and I do think it's right that. today, again
part of the political battle
is to take on. the fascist forms of culture
and ask ourselves what we need to do
in a sense in reply.
I do think that the arts do this. already incredibly richly.
I have to say that having taught. literature for many years
and having been entranced. by theater for many years
and having been fascinated by film,
which I think is. the art form of our time,
one of the things that becomes so clear
if you love these things
is that central to it
is the encounter with the other
and the empathetic encounter. with the other,
the way that you can. become other people, other worlds,
other positions,
and you don't just find out. what you have in common.
You experience. what it is to be different.
You hang in the balance.
Things can change for you. as you read about
and become intimate with
these other worlds.
So that reminded me. of the marvelous night
that we had at Central Saint Martins. in 2018,
which had as its title:
'Creativity Must Operate Across Borders'
and we were doing it in the context
of everyone's depression after Brexit.
But actually, of course,. there was a much larger
context that we were also addressing,
which is that fascism. always has to create: 'them and us'.
it has to create toxic polarizations.
It has to create a monocultural us.
We know who we are. because we're all like each other.
We stand together.
We know what we want.
We'll never change
and we're going to win that way.
Win through force,. and win through violence
and then it creates the enemy
which is an existential threat to it
and then it plunges people into. fear and division
over these 'them and us'. toxic polarizations.
But art, best art that I know
does the opposite.
It happens in the space. between characters on a stage.
It happens in the interaction
with the story of the progress
of a young man or a young girl
like the 18th century novel. 'The Rise Into Society'
and the move towards a happy ending
the quest where everything shifts
and you shift with it.
And at the middle of the novel,. you never know where you are
or what you think. if it's a really good novel.
And this in betweenness,. this willingness to be uncertain,
but to go for something better
and to share it with people who you. wouldn't thought you shared it with
these are strengths that I think. we can try and develop
in our encouragement of artists. and all the people around us.
[Mehran] Thank you for that Rosemary,. Yanis.
Okay, no, not Yanis. who's next?
Anyone else want to speak?
Danae.
[Danae] It takes too long. to find the electronical hand,
so just some random thoughts
and taking a little bit from all of you. and what everyone has said,
really wonderful, inspiring. and important things.
So some thoughts that I wrote down. coming from your input,
is, that of course, art comes,
goes hand in hand. with the beginning of humanity.
I mean it's a very deep need.
It's not a luxury,
as Yanis said: that people. are trying to present it as a luxury
so that they can easily put it aside. - he politicians I mean -
and forget about the artists. during a time of pandemic
like we have just gone through.
But it's, the artist won't. wait for someone
to tell him: 'Yeah, . okay you can do that.'
or: No, no, . now is not the time.'
He has the deep need,
it's a matter of life and death. for him or her, to create
what needs to come out. into the air, into into society.
So it's not... and, of course. art and creation is
deeply political. because all of our choices
in all of our life,. the way we live our life
and the way what art we make,
it doesn't have to do with a subject,. if it's a political subject.
But it has to do with every
decision you make about. how you go about
creating an art form,. your work,
which is the political part about.
I mean the subject. may be a flower,
or it may be an army,. but it's still political.
It can be deeply political.
And I think that what is crucial,. especially in times of crisis
in which we have been experiencing. for the last decade and more,
of how crucial art is in these times,
is exactly because it unleashes. the positive energy,
the positive forces in society,. as Rosemary and Yanis, mentioned before.
In a sense for me,
not only about the artwork itself. or the artist himself,
but the whole process like. people working in a film
or in a theater play
or helping a sculptor,. create his sculpture.
they feel happy doing that.
Whereas, if they were.....
So by making them happy. working on an artwork
on something creative,
then the forces,. the positive forces within our society
are coming to the surface.
So, and this is something. that reaches out to many, many more people
than the artists themselves,. or you know, its much smaller circle
but it expands, and it's like. concentric ripples
that go throughout. and they embrace the whole world,
and this is why it's so crucial. in my view at least.
Yeah, for now this
and please someone else,. take the floor and we'll come back.
A few comments from our viewers.
Sorry, I'm just looking at them. on my phone here.
"Arts have become even more elite
and common people feel even. more distanced from them
as with any product essential to live. but made into a luxury."
Another comment,
Where was it?
"Don't think of art as monolithic.
It is as complex. and varied as its source,
the human psyche,"
Interesting comments.
Who else would like to speak
or feels motivated. by something they've heard?
Anyone else?
Nope.
Claudia? was that,. ah Julijana.
[Julijana] I think Claudia. was faster than me, but....
No, I want to say that...
I think that... I mean. we live in the capitalistic world right?
So the problem is. like in every other industry with art,
you have also like. this one percent
of people who are famous and very rich.
And then you have like a lot. of small artists who are unknown,
who will probably will always be unknown.
So I think that being an artist. under these circumstances
is kind of well, a struggle in itself.
This is also something to not forget,. because,
besides those artists who are known. and who are famous
and are invited often to come somewhere,
there are many more artists. whose art never sees the light of day,
you know, and I think
to encourage people to be artistic,. to make music
or to try to live their life with art,
can transform our society, because if,
working in culture. and becoming an artist,
is something that is not depending. on whether you survive or not
this can transform society,. I think much faster,
but for now, people have to, you know,. pay for their life.
So many people do arts, maybe as a hobby.
Maybe they never become. what they wanted to become.
So, I think also giving people a platform
who never, never had a chance
to speak through the art to an audience,
is something that I can imagine. will be,
something good that DiEM Voice. can help with.
Also to find young, new . or not even young
but artists, who are artists. all their life
and their art was never seen by anyone
and really encouraging people. to be themselves
is what it is. in the end.
[Mehran] Thanks Julijana.. Claudia.
[Claudia] Yeah, the relation between. salary and artwork is always difficult,
and that's something also Simona. rose up before,
because it's like artists doing. something what Danae said
- They they enjoy their work - right?
And what we all think is. oh work - enjoy, that doesn't fit.
If you do something which is enjoyable,
it shouldn't be work, it's a hobby,. it's an entertainment,
and this is something which always. makes art kind of,
not being something you have to pay for.
I mean this is what I have seen. in the past.
It's very difficult to...
and artists who died, really poor,. who got famous afterwards
and nowadays we have artists. who are suffering and
probably they will have the same.
When they are dead,. they will rise up really big,
but they couldn't live a nice life.
This should also be something. we have to think about.
We should enjoy our work. and though artists have to be
so should have money as well.
[Mehran] Thanks Claudia,
And there are people in the chat. that agree very strongly with you,
'Artists or workers too", says Christian.. 'When was that issue forgotten?'
Next, it's Rosemary.
[Rosemary] Yes, I just think that. we may as well think about the aspects
of that particular subject. where we also have a strength,
because what happens. of course with the arts,
with all the arts. is the profit is upped
if you commodify them,. sell them.
Sell the artists.
Turn them into celebrities,. make them remote stars
and after a while,. that becomes self-defeating.
So all these arts industries. are looking around the young,
the new, the fresh, the authentic,
and the people who still really. care about making art
they all go looking for talent.
And meanwhile, if we progressives,. have any sense at all,
we should be making sure. that we're also encouraging
these young artists,. who are the ones who really care
about changing their societies. and doing it with the people they know
and making new communities. new lives for themselves.
So if we can skip, thank God. the whole commodification process,
we can go for something much more human.
We just have to realize. what it is that we're after.
[Mehran] Thank you Rosemary.. Simona.
[Simona] Well, I disagree.
Art shouldn't be a work or either.
We must be very clear. on what do we mean by work?
Art is hard work
and depending on if it produces a value
in the sense of something . that is commodifiable
that can be sold on the market
or just it produces something. that nobody likes
and nobody would would buy.
I remember watching a movie. about van Gogh,
and what strikes me in that movie. is that the spectator knows
that what this crazy man is producing
will be something very valuable. on the market
and so, and we all feel. ah.....
that people in the movie are stupid. because they don't understand
how much this guy. is producing values.
But, this is not the point.
Van Gogh's production. was not for the market.
The the goal is not: it can be sold.
The goal is not to produce value
in the sense of something. that should be paid.
that should be commodifiable.
It's a value in itself.
it's a human creativity
and it doesn't depend on the fact
that you produce something that,. the others would buy
and you may or even produce something that. is very ugly and bad.
It doesn't matter.
[Rosemary] How do you disagree, Simone?
I'm saying exactly the same thing.
[Simone] I dissagree with what . somebody wrote in the chat.
[Rosemary] Yes, I agree with you. for commodification.
You have a war on against commodification.
[Simone] That's it! . I totally agree with you.
My point is: let's be very careful
of the idea that an artist should. be paid for his work,
so his work should be valued. for his ability to be commodifiable.
There's no measure of the value. of an artwork,
even if it's very bad.
This is not the point.
The point is human creativity. and the being that comes to light
when humans communicate to each other
[Rosemary] And Julijana says:. 'People have to live. They have to live.'
The point is, the revolutionary value. of art is exactly
it's pointing to the fact that human value
is not something that should be paid
and that human value is not in. being able to be commodifiable.
[Mehran] Thank you Rosemary and Simona.
Claudia.. No sorry, Patrizia!
[Patrizia] Thank you.
Just keep following this very good debate.
I would propose to have a. new incoming one on this topic,
maybe inviting also the artists. we work with.
I mean I'm just thinking that,. for example, Miltos Manetas
with his incredible artistic commitment. for our Julian Assange campaign
but I'm sure Danae and Nadia. can up some other names for sure
and just to translate in practice.
This could be a good point. to translate in practice
some steps we talked about before.
That's it. Just a quick proposal.. Thank you for the attention.
[Mehran] Thanks Patrizia. . Danae.
[Danae] Yeah. So I think that. we should definitely
have talks with artists. and people from the art world,
and that would be interesting.
I'm not sure if this format is the best. or if we can organize some discussions,
but we can see about that.
I just wanted a quick comment about. eh...
because I am an artist myself
and I think I may not have been very, very. clear about
what I said about enjoying. what one does as an artist.
Yes, maybe sometimes you enjoy. it and maybe other times
it's just extremely hard.
And it's not a matter of . enjoying what you do,
It's more a matter,. what I said is: that it's a deep need.
So it's something you cannot avoid.
It will have to come out so,. whether it comes out easy
or like a birth which is hard,. but also it's extremely gratifying.
It's this kind of feeling I would say.
it's something that you.... it has to to to come into the world,
so somehow,. it will find its way out.
Sometimes this can be pleasant.
Others not, and this of course. gives space for people
saying that, yes,. artists don't need to be paid
or they do need to be paid.
All this, of course, artists. and the work needs
artists need to eat. and they need to pay rent
and they need to breathe.
So yes, of course,. somehow they need to be compensated,
but no artist that makes a work. in order to sell it,
I mean, many do unfortunately,
but this is not. what we're discussing here I believe.
And just a quick point about
I think maybe Nadia can also say. a last word about the future plans,
but I'm thinking that all. the things that were said here,
about reaching out. to giving the voice
to as many people as possible. to express themselves
but also others to be in touch. with what the creation process is,
is what DIEM Voice aims to do,. I think, in general.
I think, it's important to. support artists themselves practically,
and this is why I mentioned before. what we have been doing with Méta
even practically, with a launch
and with the nomadic tour that we did
we commissioned artists. of different forms and of different
yeah, as I said, from musicians. to shadow theatre players
to circus artists,
we mixed all the forms.
We don't have high art and low art. and popular art or more exclusive art.
Art is for everyone,
and we try to support it. in every way we can
and it's not always about money.
It's about giving the opportunity. and the platform
for people to be able. to express themselves
to feel part of this community
and for the people who are not. creative themselves,
to be able to enjoy this. and to have food for thought.
[Mehran] Thanks Danae.. Beral?
[Beral] Very quickly, to Danae.
I think we should... . The Voice should show
very emblematic political work. throughout the years.
For example, when did you do. this border work,
which was very important. and a very early approach
to the problematic situation. we are living now.
And secondly, I think as DiEM25,
We should approach art and politics. also from the economic perspective.
From the capitalist perspective.
And maybe contact economists. who really worked
on the monopolies, on artistic markets.
Because there are two monopolies:
official and private monopolies
which really determine the market of art.
[Mehran] Thank you Beral.
Does anyone else have any other
comments before we hand over. to Nadia to wrap it up?
No, I can't see if you're raising . your hands, not doing it virtually.
If you're physically raising your hands,. I can't tell.
Okay
[Yanis] Let me just say very briefly. that it's meetings like this
that help DiEM25 stand out. amongst movements.
No more needs to be said.
[Mehran] I concur.
It's been very, very insightful. and fascinating.
Thank you, all of you,
Nadia, over to you to wrap up.
[Nadia] I want to thank you all. for all this discussion,
we're going to. re-hear again and again,
this discussion for inspiration.
But basically I think, . we're all thinking the same...
looking at the same direction
as something Saint Exupéry said once.
The thing we want more
is to have more and more artists. involved in Voice,
so we can build up together this project.
Because it's not something. that we want to build
from the top to the bottom.
It's members' ideas. that will give us the ideas for projects
and make them happen.
So, you can always write to us. on our email: [email protected]
and help us please. build up this huge, great project.
[Mehran] Thank you Nadia.. Thank you again to the to the panel
and thank you to all of you. out there for watching.
One last little reminder,
which is something related but indirectly:
if you would like to join us. on a panel like this,
if you would like to be a member. of the DiEM25’s Coordinating Collective,
now is the time to apply.
The deadline is August the 4th.
If you think you've got the time. and the skill set
and you're the sort of person. who wants to help coordinate
a growing progressive movement
with a very healthy interest in art,. that puts art first,
then please do apply.
There will be a link. shortly in the YouTube chat
or just go to DiEM25.org,
to find the application form.
That's it. Thank you again,. thank you to the panel.
